Posts by Jeremy C

24

Recent WTS changes - why NOT significant...

by besty in

in light of recent changes i thought to propose a counterview might open up the debate a little.

i'm just throwng this out there for coments.

i have plagiarized the following from another poster here:.

Jeremy C

5. There is a further, fundamental, reason for not expecting any radical change in direction, no matter what the change in personnel at the top. And that is the concept on which the whole organisation is founded.

I think that the observations made in point number five are completely accurate. We need to fully realize and remember what the organization is in the minds of JWs (including its leadership). The organization is a conduit through which God's exclusive communication and Holy Spirit flows. The organization is for all intents and purposes, an earthly mediator-like institution. Many of us have noted that the Watchtower continuously draws parallels between Moses, Aaron, and the Old Covenant Priesthood with the modern day organization. Such a parallel has the appearance of being Scripturally based on its surface. The organization is viewed as an extension of Jehovah God. It is veiwed as a material manifestation of his purposes; a visible reflection of His thoughts; similar to a computer monitor displaying what the computer is currently processing. To be separated from the organization is to be separated from Jehovah. The Governing Body did not create this concept. They themselves were indoctrinated with it through the Watchtower's publications. It is a case of the indoctrinated leading the indoctrinated; or as Jesus put it: "the blind leading the blind".

It is this exclusivity that governs everyone's thinking in the organization - everyone from the local microphone handler, all the way up to the Governing Body. Many of us could say that the Governing Body display arrogance and elititsm. This is true, however, such spiritual arrogance and elitism is collective; not individual. Rank and file JWs view themselves as holier and more righteous to any other religionist. They think it is just fine and dandy that people (including innocent children) should be smitten by Jehovah for not accepting the Watchtower's gospel. How may times have we heard individual JWs ridicule other Christians as being "stupid", "blind", or "foolish". How many times have we heard JWs in field service comment on how they were going to take people's houses after they all had been destroyed at Armageddon. So, I belieive that the arrogance is collectively manifested in the organization due to the concept of "God's exclusive backing" of the organization.

Ray Franz once commented that reforms in the Watchtower do not amount to much. He commented that changes in Governing Body members, personnell, and department structures were like re-arranging the interior walls inside of a house. It may look slightly different, but the underlying foundation will always be there.

There will always be people throughout the earth who cling to that "foundation", that concept. The Watchtower could loose 80% of its membership, and the remaining 20% would become even more entrenched and committed to the organization. The Watchtower / JW organization will always be here. It may reform, restructure, fiddle with its doctrines, and change leadership, but the concept that gave it its birth will always be here. If the Mormom church with all of its scandals, upheavals, ex-communications, reforms, moronic doctrines, and idiotic nonsense can continure to exist after all of this time, than so can the Watchtower.

9

Making God's Commands Arbitrary

by milligal in

jw
friends

there's a philosophical theology behind the premise that people who blindly obey (a.k.a.

'sheeplike') have no inner sense of morality or ethics.

take for exampe the idea of shunning, jw's shun those that they are told to shun.

Jeremy C

This is why people who know a lot about the Bible very rarely convert to the Watchtower. One of the first things they spot in the organization is the legalistic / Talmudic approach to Christianity on which salvation is based. Those who have never educated themselves in the Bible and who are only nominal church members often fall for the faulty logic and sophomoric reasoning in the Society's publications.

I have also noted that people with large guilt complexes often join legalistic / authoritarian religions. People who have lived very troubled or sordid lives often go through a change where their internal pendulum swings in the opposite direction. They shift from being loose and licentious to being stern, judgemental, and devoted to religious dogmaticism.

I think that the average JW (despite giving up freedoms of every kind) feels a sense of security and well-being in dutifully following religious rules, regulations, and programmed activity. Much like the first-century Jews, they feel that spiritual purity is linked with following many rules and regulations. They feel that God's favor will only come through following a Talmudic, systemized form of worship despite what their true heart condition might be.

26

When U Read The Society's "Direction" Now, What Goes Thru Your Mind?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i can right now only think of one thing---bullsh*t.

Jeremy C

I agree with drew sagan. The Watchtower leadership has traditionally (and still remains) a very counter-intuitive, regressive, and reactionary group of legalistic men. Through their actions, they demonstrate that they care much more about the organizational structure and its traditions than they do about human beings. They engage with the flock as if they are commodities to be managed instead of sheep to be cared for.

What we see today is a movement that is hardly anything like the first-century congregation. The JW organization is organized and operated very similar to a multi-national corporation. For all intents and purposes the JW organization is really just a huge publishing conglomerate with layers of management overseeing six million sales reps.

Here are a few of the major issues I see:

First, unlike other churches, the Watchtower organization stubbornly refuses to adapt to the challenges faced by people in living day-to-day life. I have noticed that many other churches organize free support groups for single mothers, teenagers, people who suffer with depression, and support groups for fathers. This helps foster a closer cohesiveness and helps people deal with life. The Watchtower leadership would never allow any congregations to organize these kinds of arrangements. This kind of support would help retain many members who otherwise become depressed, burned out, or discouraged and leave the organization.

Second, the leaderships hostility toward education will continue to create a brain-drain in the organization. There will continue to be a serious deficit of people who know how to think rationally, who have critical thinking skills, and who show any creativity.

Third, the continuous push toward pre-canned, pre-planned, pre-packaged material and talks will not provide the spiritual stimulation and enrichment necessary to retain members. The ways in which talks and Watchtower studies are micro-managed does not allow for freedom of expression or creativity. For those who are intelligent, creative, and forward thinking; they must face the day-to-day frustration of having no intellectual outlet or stimulation. Very few youths will be interested in this kind of dry, legalistic, rigid, and boring form of worship. The way in which the human spirit is stifled will only continue to push people out the doors.

Fourth, the Watchtower leadership is setting in motion a very powerful reverse-psychology when it continuously blasts "apostates" and the internet. Subconsciously, this is going to tell people that they should look into the internet for some answers. The Watchtower leadership are throwing up red flags right and left with their tirades against those who disagree with them. More and more Witnesses will know that something is deeply amiss.

Fifth, the leadership does not know how to demonstrate personal responsibility. When Witnesses leave the organization; the leadership always blames them; and accuses them of having a "self-serving" attitude. They continue to demonize dissent, and cannot accept any unflattering observations about themselves. This kind of arrogance does noting to build people up, but only creates an artificial / manufactured unanimity. Manufactured unanimity is very fragile and cannot last forever.

The basic problem in all of this is a group of men who govern over people’s lives with an old outdated template. They stubbornly cling to organizational traditions, arbitrary policies, and rigid procedures the way that an infant clings to its bottle. They are demonstrating a disregard for the hardships of people, a rigid corporate-like attitude which stifles the human spirit, and a backwards anti-intellectual attitude which will continue to push people away.

29

Do you care about calling the Watchtower a false prophet?

by drew sagan in

over and over again the argument is made that jehovah's witnesses and/or the watchtower society are a false prophet.

arguments for the 'false prophet' label come as follows: .

the watchtower has predicted the end of the world on certain dates and such things have never transpired.

Jeremy C

Now I see the distinction you were making. Yes, the organization’s fetish for end-times urgency drum-beating has had a negative effect on it’s followers.

The organization has devoted such an inordinate amount of time, energy, and resources into recruitment - that they have neglected so many of the needs of its members. I have noticed that other churches organize services such as youth groups, support groups for single parents, support groups for depression, and organized assistance to those in poverty. The Watchtower organization views these things as a waste of time, as all of their focus is channeled to the urgent recruitment of new members.

This constant "end is near" mantra has caused so many in the organization to neglect giving attention to important areas of life such as retirement planning, education, and the decision whether or not to have children.

The organization’s irrational sense of Armageddon readiness has indeed caused many to become tired and discouraged by "Jehovah’s delay". Of course, in reality, there is no such thing as a "delay". It is merely the fact that the organization has instilled expectations in its members where it should have shown discretion by keeping its lips in check.

29

Do you care about calling the Watchtower a false prophet?

by drew sagan in

over and over again the argument is made that jehovah's witnesses and/or the watchtower society are a false prophet.

arguments for the 'false prophet' label come as follows: .

the watchtower has predicted the end of the world on certain dates and such things have never transpired.

Jeremy C

I believe that the Watchtower organization must be judged according to the same standards by which it judges other religions. If they think themselves to be so elite and so emphatically superior as to declare other Christian groups false prophets - while declaring themselves to be God’s prophet organization; then I believe that they have opened themselves up for this scrutiny by anyone.

The Watchtower came out with a series of articles in the late 1960’s which stated that false prophesying consisted of proclaiming predictions in God’s name that did not occur even if the person or group had the best of intentions. It is difficult to understand how they could have printed such self-convicting material in light of their own failed predictions. Rutherford once remarked that he had made an "ass" of himself when his predictions did not come to fruition. I think that the organization as a whole has made an enormous ass out of itself which may have only added to the argument by some that the Bible is nonsense.

I don’t think that a belief in God is a prerequisite for stating that the Watchtower organization fits the description of a label that they have placed on others. The Watchtower organization is like the emperor with no clothes who sees nakedness everywhere else. Anyone can point out this hypocrisy regardless of their religious beliefs - or lack thereof.

13

god's organization...

by kzjw in

is that term blaphemy, or is it idolotry?

if i'm an ubm, but know that "though shall have no other gods before me" i am spiritually wndangering myself?

my mate tries to defuse this debate by saying the organization exists in the form of angels, but were she to spew that bs to an elder, i'm sure she'd get some serious counselling.

Jeremy C

The JW concept of the "Spirit-directed Organization" was one of the most troubling and perplexing problems which eventually led me to begin in-depth research. The organization is sold as an essential institution through which all people must gain salvation and even carry out their baptism. I simply saw no Scriptural foundation for this.

This concept tends to overwrite the New Testament's focus on the Holy Spirit. The Watchtower organization has appointed and sold itself as a form of indispensible "transmitter" through which the Holy Spirit is transmitted to Christians. No contact with the organization means no Holy Spirit. This concept is foreign to the Scriptures as it relates to Christians. The NT continually states that Christ is the one and only mediator. There is never any provision through which any earthly institution (organization) or group of people (144,000 / Governing Body) can share in that mediator role.

What also really troubled me was that the Watchtower requires baptismal candidates to verbally acknowledge being baptized into an organization before they can qualify for immersion. There is absolutely no Scriptural justification for this. First century Christians were never baptized "into" or as "members" of any particular congregation or the congregation doing the baptizing.

The other aspect that is so troubling about all of this is that the JW organization is proclaimed as the "ark of salvation" through which people must survive Armageddon. Nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that Jesus or the Apostles believed in this concept. The whole underpinning of one's salvation rested upon relationship with Christ. Nowhere was there any indication that one must be saved through a congregation or a collective group. Jesus' parable of the wheat intermixed with the weeds makes this clear. If Christ was talking about one true organization, he would have most likely used another parable or stated that there would only be one single stalk of wheat among the weeds.

19

Is Jdubs practice of Teenage baptism really any better than Infant Baptism?

by blkblk13 in

so i was thinking the other day about how the jdubs always mock the catholics for baptizing infants who can't make a true commitment to god so the sybol of dedication is empty.

well, as anyone who's been in the org knows there is a culture of pressuring teenagers to get baptized.

if u r over 12yo it is a question that is constantly asked.

Jeremy C

In the United States, a major percentage of baptismal candidates consists of the children of JW families. The fact that these baptisms are propping up the growth figures in some Western countries may be a factor.

Being baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses is even a bigger life decision than it is for other churches. Baptism immediately subjects oneself to the authority structure of the Watchtower organization with all of it's dictates, policies, and it's social expectations. For the average 13 or 14 year old JW youth, they have not yet developed the intellectual maturity and skills of reason and discernment to enter into this kind of life-changing contractural arrangement. How any organization can claim that a 13 year-old child has the intellectual maturity to make this decision, yet does not have the maturity to make future educational decisions without the coercive "guidance" of the Watchtower is rather contradictory.

The average JW child has already been thoroughly and completely indoctrinated in Watchtowerism by the time they are an early teen. Their baptism is an event that sort of seals the deal and obligates them march in lock-step conformity with the rest of the organization. I believe that baptizing such young ones; in addition to enahancing growth figures; is an attempt to retain these naive and impressionable members before they gain the intellectual curiosity which leads so many of them out the front door.

28

dawn bible students

by jehovahsheep in

jw
friends

many ex-jws have become bible students-in essence students of charles russells writings.i have also started to study his writings and find them interesting.what are some your thoughts on these groups?

Jeremy C

its probably my hunger for much information.i love god -does he reveal himself with any group?if not -how come?

You may want to study Ray Franz’s book In Search of Christian Freedom. This may clear up some things for you.

One thing that the Biblical record does not support is God exclusively dealing with one single group or organization in modern times. What about the Nation of Israel; you may ask?

The NT clearly teaches that the Old Covenant with its earthly priesthood was done away with. There is no human mediatorship here on earth. The apostles stated unequivocally that Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator.

When you study the NT, you will find that Jesus never indicated that he came to establish an organization. Notice that when people were baptized, they were merely baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There was never any indication that Christians were baptized into a particular congregation, or in the name of the congregation doing the baptizing.

In terms of salvation, there in nothing in any of Christ’s teachings or the apostolic writings to suggest that salvation is attained through membership in any earthly institution. All of their writings spoke exclusively of relationship with Christ.

No congregation was able to boast of having God’s exclusive backing. Not Corrinth. Not Ephesus. Not Phillipi. Not even Antioch, where Paul was dispatched on his missions from.

You will notice that the concept of exclusivity crept into the Christians church after the deaths of the apostles. Exclusivity was just as erroneous as any of the supposed false teachings of the Greeks, which Paul had mentioned.

The Gnostics were one such group. Their whole focus was on "superior knowledge". They believed that their knowledge was superior to all other Christians, that God dealt only with them, and that such "correct knowledge" was a prerequisite for salvation. Sound familiar?

You really need to purge this concept of exclusive backing from your thinking. It is this kind of thinking that leads people to follow the kind of sophistry, rhetoric, and slogans of many groups and pseudo-Christian groups who claim to have Apostolic authority.

Being the member of an exclusivistic group may provide short-term gratification and feelings of security, but it will stifle one’s intellect, thinking capacities, and power of reason. It will not lead to the spiritual growth that one is seeking, but will lead to spiritual infancy and intellectual laziness.

21

1983 Australia Gov. Body member Lyod Barry promises NO change to 1914!

by Witness 007 in

listening to the australia bethel dedication talks 1983 {avalible on cassette} loyd barry of the governing body tells of how an old missionary brother aproached him and said: "the society can change any doctrine they want...but please brother, don't change the doctrine regarding 1914.

" {he had hoped to live thru to paradise} loyd responds: "brothers, we have no intension of changing the 1914 doctrine.".

remember this was just after raymond franz handed out to the governing body members, copies of an article written by an elder dis-proving 607 and 1914....i think in 1979.. so, after loyd barry died, in 1993, the 1914 generation theory was thrown out...that missionary had long since died.

Jeremy C

There has never been a Watchtower to my knowlege that promised the Faithful Slave would not change the 1914 doctrine formula....they did continue to print belief in it...but this is saying: "I PROMISE WE WON'T CHANGE IT." That's what blew me away.

Continuing to print and state the belief in a doctrine is not a promise to retain that doctrine permanently without change. The Watchtower organization has never operated this way. Loyal Watchtower Witnesses do not even believe that. One of the basic tenants of this movement is "progressive revelation", and "new light". JWs actually expect this from their Governing Body. It excites them and gives them assurance that Jehovah’s chariot is on the move.

For decades, the Watchtower printed and taught that the "cut off" date for the selection of the 144,000 was 1935. They continued to support their belief in this. Just because they promoted a belief in it without any indication of future change; did not mean that they promised there would never be any change. The Watchtower has never promised not to change anything.

On another note, individual GB members have sometimes expressed their personal opinions about matters independently of the collective GB. What they may say to various people in private conversations should be taken with a grain of salt. Ray Franz noted in Crisis of Conscience that individual body members often had opinions that went contrary to the collective body.

21

1983 Australia Gov. Body member Lyod Barry promises NO change to 1914!

by Witness 007 in

listening to the australia bethel dedication talks 1983 {avalible on cassette} loyd barry of the governing body tells of how an old missionary brother aproached him and said: "the society can change any doctrine they want...but please brother, don't change the doctrine regarding 1914.

" {he had hoped to live thru to paradise} loyd responds: "brothers, we have no intension of changing the 1914 doctrine.".

remember this was just after raymond franz handed out to the governing body members, copies of an article written by an elder dis-proving 607 and 1914....i think in 1979.. so, after loyd barry died, in 1993, the 1914 generation theory was thrown out...that missionary had long since died.

Jeremy C

I hate to be so contrarian on this matter, but I don’t see why this is anything noteworthy. When someone states that they have no intention of carrying out something; this a far different than if they had promised not to carry something out.

I’m sure that in 1983 the Governing Body felt that the end was just around the corner. But, as time went forward, reality caught up with them. The composition of the GB also changed slightly in the 1990s. They responded to reality by doing what they do best: pulling the new light rabbit out of their hat. This has been their m.o. for over a century.

There was nothing in print or stated unequivocally that they would not make any changes to the 1914 / this generation doctrine. It seems like some over-eager people are looking for a controversy where none exists.